13 replies to this topic

[Bryce]

Hi all,

In preparing for our move later this year to (most likely) Seattle there are a few things I'm going to do to our van. One of them is building a custom hitch (which I will probably make a thread later today about) that will tow 5000lbs, the other is deciding whether to re-arch my tired leaf springs or upgrade to a pair from an E-200/300. I am leaning towards upgrading to a pair from an E-200/300, but here are the facts and hopefully some of the usual suspects here can give me their informed opinions:

-In the near future we will be purchasing and installing a middle seat, partially converting the cargo van into a five passenger van. At any given time there will be anywhere between two and five people in the passenger compartment of the van. So... 400-1200lbs inside the van itself.
-All previous cargo weight (musical instruments) will be offloaded into a TANDEM (dual) axle cargo trailer WITH brakes. This will be either a 5x10 or 6x12. Cargo weight will be 2-3,000lbs MAXIMUM for a total trailer weight of 4,500lbs MAXIMUM. This will realistically be around 1,500lbs cargo for a total trailer weight of 2,500-2,700lbs; the other is a worst case scenario weight. I honestly don't think we even own 1,000lbs worth of gear, but why underestimate?
-Based on pictures posted here by Vic (who I have asked for more pictures from but I understand he is extremely busy) and others I am going to commission my mechanic to build me a high quality, high strength custom hitch that would be the equivalent of a "Class III" and will be removable in case I need to drop my gas tank.

Now, with all that in mind, would I be better off having my leaf springs re-arched or upgrading to a pair capable of supporter a heavier load? Again, I am leaning towards the latter, even if I have to have them re-arched before installing them, too. If your answer is to upgrade, my question then becomes: to which capacity? Should I upgrade to the 1600lb E-200 springs or the 2240lb E-300 springs? Any larger would seem overkill, though all are available to me nationally from junk yards. Should any of you personally have them available, I would be open to buying them, as well.

So, what say you, Econolines? As always, I appreciate your advice. You guys have never steered me wrong.

Thanks,

Bryce

[Tom Snyder]

Do you really think you need to do this? You been hauling the band stuff, was it ok with that? Tongue weight of the trailer will be a lot less then putting all the weight right in the van anyway.
If you do it, I go for the E200s. 300s might be too stiff for your liking. Hauled a lot of weight in my 200s. Had 3 dirt bikes, motorcycles that is, myself & 2 other guys in them before. No problem. I know I had a lot more weight than that at times, no complaints.

[Bryce]

Tom,

I'm not sure I need to upgrade, but I'm on the edge about whether re-arching the originals will be enough. The original springs are definitely worn out. The two cross country moves we've made showed me how tired they were - hauling all the gear in the van drops the rear end down pretty low - the wheel wells hit the tires when she goes over a bad bump (I have wide slotted mags that stick out a bit). Add a bit more weight in the cargo area or put a trailer on the back and she just about rides on the tires. The problem is probably 50% the tired springs and 50% the wider rims/tires.

Now, I'm sure that if I were to have them re-arched that I would be fine, but I sure wouldn't mind the extra "peace of mind" of having another 500lbs load from the E-200 springs. That's the entire tongue weight of a fully loaded trailer or five more amp cabs in the cargo area - which would definitely be enough for me. Of course, that might be silly thinking on my part, that's why I'm asking you guys!

Thanks as always, Tom.

Bryce

[Tom Snyder]

- the wheel wells hit the tires when she goes over a bad bump...

Sounds like you do need to do something. Since re=arched springs won’t be any stronger maybe E200s are what you need. Wonder if you still might need some longer u-bolts & blocks to raise it a little too. Maybe your rear wheels just stick out too far.
Hmm, not really....
You might try bending up the flange just inside the outer wheel wells. Done that for clearance a few times. But you gotta be careful because bending them can chip the paint off the outside. If your [paint is as good as it looks in your pix you wouldn’t want to screw that up. Maybe you know somebody that’s good at body work, specifically with tapping metal. That would probably mean that he would be an old dude ... like me.
Speaking of old... you look about 18 in your pix. Damn kids!
Another thing that might be causing a problem...
Your van just might be overloaded & weighed down by all that damn shag carpet.

[Bryce]

Looks like you're on the fence / perhaps leaning slightly towards the E-200 springs (?).

This isn't time sensitive, btw, I have until July or so to do this, so I can hound the people who have done the upgrade or thought about it into posting their thoughts, too.

You might try bending up the flange just inside the outer wheel wells. Done that for clearance a few times. But you gotta be careful because bending them can chip the paint off the outside. If your [paint is as good as it looks in your pix you wouldn’t want to screw that up.

Naw, the paint suffered quite a bit in Chicago. The rain gutters specifically are a mess. The first summer out in Texas she developed these little hairline cracks in the paint. I think after being garaged for so many years she just wasn't used to being thermal cycled like that, so the constant heat and cold since I've owned her has taken its toll. I planned on repainting her this summer before we moved but might not get to it in time! Anyway, that's a good idea, as the flange hits just on the very edge of the wheel, you can see where it scuffs it right along the sidewall. I bent the flanges up a tad bit myself a couple years back so it wouldn't dig straight into the wheel if for whatever reason the rear end fell completely down, but a good body man could do a way better job.

Maybe you know somebody that’s good at body work, specifically with tapping metal. That would probably mean that he would be an old dude ... like me.

Haha, I think my mechanic is around the same age as you! Although his father in law works in his shop and I think he's got you beat by 20 years. My parts guy is in his 60s, too. Kids like me are lucky to have all you guys around, mechanics my age and in their 30s don't really know anything - they've been trained to just unbolt the old part and bolt a new part on.

I'm sure they know an older body man around here somewhere... maybe. A lot of the old guys closed up shop within the last few years as the Mexican shops have put them out of business (their labor rates are WAY cheaper). I hope no one takes that the wrong way, I mean no disrespect whatsoever, it's just the reality of the situation.

Speaking of old... you look about 18 in your pix. Damn kids!

Aww, damnit, Tom. I'm 28, dude! I was 24 in those pictures. My wife saw your post and she was like "SEE I TOLD YOU!" (she always goads me about how young people think I look) That's why I try and grow a beard (and fail because it's all patchy). Nobody cards my wife but me? I get asked for ID ALL THE TIME!

Another thing that might be causing a problem...
Your van just might be overloaded & weighed down by all that damn shag carpet.

Could be worse, I could drive this...



Seems like there might be some bad drag from those dog ears...

Thanks as always, man.

Bryce

[Tom Snyder]

Looks like you're on the fence / perhaps leaning slightly towards the E-200 springs (?).

Nope, not on the fence. Go for it.

... his father in law works in his shop and I think he's got you beat by 20 years.

Doubt it. Most all guys 20 years older than me are either retired for 20 years or so or dead.

My wife saw your post and she was like "SEE I TOLD YOU!"

[Roger]

Gee Tom.. I thought you were gonna say that most guys 20 years older than you were in those displays in museums throwing pointy sticks at dinosaurs. .. Just yankin yer chain!.
Cripes, I'm only 42,, and most mornings I feel like a 90 year old trying to get out of bed and get moving.

[Bryce]

I might exaggerate on Allen's father in law's age, but he's definitely an older guy (late 70s?). There's another mechanic down the street from Allen, oldest mechanic I've ever met. There's gotta be something to these older guys still working and staying so sharp (not to mention alive!). Most people I know who retire at 67 have Alzheimer's by 75, but I think that's because they sit around all day watching Matlock. It's what happened to both of my grandfathers. So you see this forum is actually a good thing for all you fuddy duddies, it keeps you all busy helping us kids! I keed, I keed, you know I really appreciate it.

Hey, come on now, Roger, that's kind of unfair. We all know dinosaurs and man never existed at the same time. Wooly mammoths and man? Now that's fair game!

Geez, I rotated my tires a few days ago and took my drums off to have them machined. My legs and back ached for a few days after that. You all aren't painting a very bright future for me here... I'm going to need a walker by the time I'm 40!

Bryce

[Tom Snyder]

Gee Tom.. I thought you were gonna say that most guys 20 years older than you were in those displays in museums throwing pointy sticks at dinosaurs ...

HEY!

Hey, come on now, Roger, that's kind of unfair. We all know dinosaurs and man never existed at the same time. Wooly mammoths and man? Now that's fair game!

That’s right. They could be real good pets too. But Mom sure got pissed every time he got in the garden.

[Bryce]

All right. One job down - finally got the headlight relay mod done, pics and write-up incoming tonight or tomorrow - one to go.

I've located a highly recommended shop in DFW. My mechanic and parts guy both recommend them, as does an OEM spring manufacturer. The shop's been in business since 1940 and is still family owned. Went out to check them out last week and discuss the project with the owner and got a great feeling about them. He didn't try to sell me on a more expensive option but gave me a second option - having mine re-arched and a custom fabricated long leaf added to up my spring rate. He says the leaf would add an inch or so to my rear ride height and would increase the spring rate by 15%. Not quite to E-200 levels, but close enough. (I also called a competing shop that was highly recommended and he mentioned the same option, too.) Remember, I'm looking to curb payload induced sagging, not increase payload capacity. He said if I could find a set of nice springs locally that he'd be happy to do that job, too.

Cost estimate is as follows:

Re-arching: $60 a side, total for the pair: $120
Custom leaf + labor to install leaf within pack: $180
Labor to remove pack from vehicle and reinstall: $150-170
Total: $450-470

That doesn't seem too bad, especially if I decide to remove and reinstall the springs myself. I'm not sure I will, though, as safety's a bit of an issue around our house right now (massive construction project going on right next to my driveway). Having the van up on jackstands while a caterpiller is jackhammering away at the limestone beneath my garage for 8 hours doesn't inspire confidence.

Anyway, I've also called every junkyard that pops up on the parts locator for E-200/300 springs and hardly anybody has a 2nd gen Econoline anymore. Fewer still have the rear leafs. I counted four or five. Of those, the cheapest I found was $100 for a 1974 E-200 pair with $100 shipping from Colorado. He was the only one who wanted to ship. He was also the only one who wanted less than $200/pair. He couldn't guarantee the condition, obviously; would buying from a cold climate where salt is used on the roads matter?

Cost estimate:

Junkyard springs + shipping: $200
Re-arch: $120
Labor to remove old pack from vehicle and install new pack: $150-170
Total: $470-490

Price is equivalent, whether I do the removal and installation or not. This would upgrade my spring rate to true E-200 (3/4 ton) capacity, but, again, not sure how necessary that is to what my true goal is (combat payload induced sagging). The springs I would be buying are an unknown quantity - I would be trading springs that are in known great condition, have never been in anything but an arid, Texas climate (they were never driven during their Chicago winter stays) for springs that might have been driven in a salty coast environment or during salty winters.

All things considered I am now leaning towards keeping my original springs and having the custom leaf added to the pack. That would lift the back-end a tad as well as increase the spring rate, getting me close enough to an E-200 upgrade to not make much of a difference between the two options. They would also measure the van out and re-arch the springs accordingly so that the van sits level (finally!). If anyone knows what the stock ride height of the van (Hoofbeats, I'm looking at you, dude!), I'd love to know it!

So, does anyone have any comments or advice? As always, I greatly appreciate reading them.

Thanks a lot,

Bryce

[Roger]

I don't see any price in there for replacing the leaf spring bushings. Are yours new? (or at least good enough to re-use). If you were to go for replacing your leafs with a junkyard pair, I would assume that the bushings would have to be replaced. You have no way of knowing how they're going to take the springs off the van at the yard. They'll probably be torching the mounts or maybe the bolts.
If your bushings are good, and the yard springs are unknown,, you'll have to add the price of bushings +labor for that.

[Bryce]

I didn't even think about how they'd remove the junkyard springs from the vehicle. D'oh.

I think all my bushings and shackles should be good enough to re-use - all are original. He took a look at them and thought so as well. Even if I did the job at home myself I'd likely take the springs into a shop to have new bushings pressed in - I'm wussing out a bit on this job, guys. That front end rebuild really sapped me! And this seems like the easier job too!

Thanks a lot, Roger.

Bryce

[Bryce]

Glad this ordeal is over, and an ordeal it ended up being, too. The original shop I was going to take it too to do the "leaf spring re-arch + adding a leaf under the master" ended up flaking out, which made me fighting mad. I had a 10:30am appointment on Monday. My wife took Sunday, Monday and Tuesday off and my mother took Monday and Tuesday off. On Sunday my wife and I took my 89 year old grandmother to what will likely be her last ever family reunion. Then, on Monday, the three (wife, my mother and myself) of us drove the van (and my mother's car, so we'd have a ride back from the shop, which is a good ways away from any of our homes) up to the shop only to find that the owner went to the big Texas Speedway over the weekend, got himself nice and drunk and didn't show up to work on Monday. He didn't show up to work on Friday, either. He neglected to mention he was planning on doing this when I talked to him on Thursday. Two of his mechanics that I spoke two for about half an hour were literally standing idle in the shop, as they can't take in business on their own (it being a family owned and run affair). They seemed extremely pissed, and let me know he does this a handful of times a year. This shop has been open since 1940, and he's the son (I believe) of the man who opened it. I'd say way to run a great business into the ground, but seeing as how not many places do this I am sure people are more than happy to put up with his shenanigans. I even left my name and number and was willing to still give him my business if he called and offered me an explanation. Come Tuesday? Not a peep. It's Wednesday now and I still haven't heard anything. This is just the type of unprofessional crap that gives good mechanics a bad name.

I spoke with another shop in Dallas, but they were pricier than the original shop (above) I was going to take it to. I was ready to call the whole project off and have my custom hitch built (which I spoke to hitch/trailer/fab shop about! yay!) when I did a search for Fort Worth area shops instead on Tuesday and came upon a spring shop that has had a ton of people write about it on the internet/forums, whereas the two Dallas shops had never been written about anywhere. I called and spoke with the owner and he was very professional. Turns out he's the son of the second owner of the second location (opened in 1950) of a shop that opened in 1928. I pull in and the first thing I see is a 50s Chevy having its leaf springs re-arched - good sign. His price, which included bushings, u-bolts, re-arch, custom fabricated add a leaf under the master, cleaning and paint, was roughly 30% of what the other shops were going to charge. And he was willing to see me same day. I got the van back 6 hours after dropping it off. I believe his lower price was due to the fact that he was solely a spring shop and located in Fort Worth whereas the other two shops weren't just spring shops and they were located in Dallas. This guy was purely professional businessman all the way, too.

Now, I got a handful of before photos and I need to wait for some good sunlight to get the after photos, and I'll wait a couple weeks for the suspension to settle a bit before doing my final write-up (and I'll do a follow-up after moving cross-country with the heavy load, as that should be the real test of the job done), but I'm very happy with the work that was done. We drove her 50 miles home from Fort Worth and she was so happy. The rear suspension is sitting a good two or three (?) inches higher than it was before the rebuild. He did say I'd likely have to get camber adjusted if the front coils don't lower a bit - the original owner had a comprehensive alignment done right before I bought her and I'm thinking it included a camber adjustment on the very, very tired original coils. He said to wait a few months to see, as the newly raised rear has helped a lot! It's raised, stiffer, not bouncy, not worn out anymore. "Bounce testing" her she responds as she should, one good bounce and she settles. I can finally chuck those coil-over shocks out and put a nice set of Ranchos on all the way around. And she's completely level all the way around! No more sag!

I'll put the pictures up as soon as I get the after shots taken. Yay!

Thanks to everybody for all of your help, input, advice and, most importantly, encouragement. Sometimes I get to thinking about too many options or try to tackle too many things at once that I just need a little bit of a push to keep me going.

Bryce

[Roger]

Good deal Bryce. Glad to hear things worked out for you in the end. It's probably good that you didn't wait for that other shop to get their act together and get your van in there. Never know how that may have turned out.